Minter, this is not perfectly written as there are many directions in my comment but here is a kind of comment/addition I would make to your note.
Historically, in the Western World, society was driven by religion which created a common good. There could be a lot of discussions around “good” as fighting religions meant war (Crusades …all 10 of them, spanning over almost 200 years), colonialism (educate the savages, etc….). And there were also civil or international wars such as Catholics vs. Protestants.
However, the role of the individual was to fit in a society where he was going to stay for a short while (mortal infancy i.e. giving birth to 10 children and seeing 2 survive; average life span of 30 to 40 years, wars and plague, etc….) this made life a very elusive thing and the collective good was important. Religion made the promise of another life, way more peaceful unless you had seriously misbehaved.
Points 1 and 4 (peace and socio demographics) enabled points 2 and 3 (60’s thinking and deconstructionism, the latter, a French created evil let loose out of its box in the USA -:) )
Peace was the result of the industrialization of war with millions of casualties and enormous destruction. Science enabled a longer life span.
But I would add a point 6 which the loss of religion and upsurge of atheism, a movement with fundaments in the 18th century but has seen a massive acceleration in the 20th century. Plenty of variations from communism to global individualism.
Its expansion was fueled by the longer life spans suddenly available. One can think one’s whole life without the too many dangers that force you to unite with your peers.
Another unexpected aspect (almost a point 7) is the disappearance of death in our societies. In the older times religion and death were intertwined. One would die at home surrounded by family and a priest. This is now subcontracted to hospitals and elderly homes.
An event killing a few individuals becomes a media event. This was not the case before. Donbass was a story of 15,000 casualties since 2014. The figures are just too big, too industrial, i.e., it overwhelms emotion and the media do not like this.
Religion was the common shelter against a dire life on earth.
Democracy is a common shelter to regulate a peaceful society against crisis.
But in eternal peace times, unlimited economic expansion, the absence of real crisis, do I need to unite with anybody? Can I not live the life of my own choosing without the painful limitations imposed by others? Do I even need to care about others?
This sublime moment was fueled by the vain message of the 90s (the end of history, the good of the West spanning across the world, etc…) and by (your point 5) the social networks, where I can find others who think like me. Precisely what you and I are doing on Dialogos -:)
A few local wars were fought. Either too remote, or too complicated …a silly excuse in a case of typical denial. I am truly amazed that with Ukraine “war is back in Europe” since 1945. Do they know where Yugoslavia is located? When it was? That it included a genocide that we let perpetrate, weapons at stand still.
So, to come back to your question, I think democracy and its discussion mechanisms, need a common enemy.
Let me quote our dear Winston again: “No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”
We had been until recently very focused on what was not good in our societies (the worst form) as we had no enemies. If there is no enemy, each one goes to its individual activities and does not care about common good, nor even cares if the other party agrees/disagree. Taken one step further, it invents enemies like the 18th century white slave merchant and all its descendants....forever.
Arrogant China is a bit remote for Europeans to care…this is not for us. We are a bit at a loss on how to fight Islamism, as it is a bit tricky to handle with the Muslim part of our citizens.
Will Mr. Poutin be a wakeup call, a useful idiot (or bastard or devil if you prefer naming him that way), it could well be.
To fight selfishness, you need these kinds of guys.
For us to live in civil peace, we need “good” others with a sufficient common understanding against those “bad” others with opposite views.
Deconstruction is interesting in peace times. It has its merits. Some unfair treatments need to be overcome. But if we are at war with a virus, or with an army, this will be subdued by the emergency.
Religion was a way of bonding together these intricate and complicated elements of life. It is almost gone now in Europe. The US keep this religious aspect, but they are so divided between conservatives and progressists that I wonder if they go to the same churches on Sundays.
We could also look at the impact on short term thinking (what I, consumer, want NOW immediately from Amazon shopping to surrogacy) versus long term thinking (what I will start without ever seeing the end result (war, cathedrals, oak forests, confront oceans on 15th century galleons, etc…)
One of my key theses (for one of my next posts) will be about the loss of COMMON SENSE (cf the Common Good), where we've lost a sense of what we have in COMMON in both locus and concept (nation, community, religion, entertainment, media, history, facts...) and our SENSE of meaning. We struggle to make sense of our lives, what's going on in it and around it because we have lost touch with some ground rules of life... notably that we die, but also, as Kierkegaard might explain, about the realities (limitations and finitude) of our body. In times of peace, we've gotten caught up in the endless possibilities of the mind, the dream of limitless life...
I certainly believe that, as a society, we need to find a more uniting and meaningful sense. A 'wicked' enemy and war sharpen the mind and remind us that we may have more in common than we thought...
Re your comment about Yugoslavia, it reinforces our need to continue to study History -- the more traditional one of geopolitics, movement of populations, changing borders, cultures and wars...
I thank you for your considerate comments, Jean-Louis.
Give me a few days to write it properly and provide you a few relevant links, but there is one missing element (or rather intertwined with N°2 and 3) which is around, religion, the perception of death and an ability to think of a future that goes beyond me and myself.
Whenever “onions” meet initially, in whatever circumstance, it’s helpful when there is a definitely a willingness to listen to each other as many are aware. This world seems to be filled with many professionals who truly want to help those who struggle and experience difficulties.
Sharing kindness, and love would be another great place to start, in my opinion.
So very true about facts!! Having knowledgeable leaders with integrity, sharing the facts, and educating can make for great brainstorming. Without facts, it can lead to chaos.
The past can definitely matter. Facts for sure, matter. Accountability matters. It’s a mutual give and take for relationships to form and work with each other.
Focusing on subjects such as health, schools, income, and listening to each other by discussing what the problems are, especially racial and culture problems, regardless of political affiliation, religions, etc can be a start. You are right how do we get there? A focused non bias and prepared leader I believe is a good place to start. What do we want children to learn? They are the future. Our teachers, our leaders, the media, can have such a positive effect.
“Onions” such a great analysis,:) and with all these different layers and experiences, how powerful it could be to share and focus on ways to find solutions, and work together to solve the most critical issues at hand. Maybe then the goodness will out weigh the bad intent by others in this world. Morals and values, what are your thoughts on how it plays a role in todays society?
That initial intention is so important. Without the intention to listen actively and without judgement, it's unlikely that a conversation becomes anything more than talking at one another. My strong belief is that, in order to solidify that intention, there is yet another layer above which is to have some kind of 'meta' shared belonging, as in: being citizens of the same country. The issue today is that we no longer seem to have a shared vision of our nation (it's a broad statement, but many populations/countries seem to struggle to establish a singular and shared national identity).
Something else that's interesting in the onion analogy is that we humans tend to cry as you take off its layers. It's that listening takes effort. Deeper conversations tap into our emotions. And, as we let go of our layers (aka masks), we get down to what's important and who we truly are... And that vulnerability is awfully powerful... as long as we share the common intention of listening and learning from one another, rather than imposing on -- or wishing to change -- the other.
Beautifully said Minter. I believe many are trying to get us there… but like you state, if these “masks” can be acknowledged and seen, that would be a great start. How awesome it would be to see that in our lifetime, progress of just that, listening and learning from one another. I believe that would result in many happier hearts and help to promote a more peace-filled world.🙏🏻
Today's vexing state of affairs was in no small part intentionally created by those who benefit from it; namely, the architects of the Cloward-Piven Strategy. Causation and continuation are most often directly linked to those who benefit at the expense of others from a given situation.
First, perpetrators anarchy need assign a name and a face to a hated other. Righteous indignation toward this other facilitates Balkanizing society into mutually hostile factions. Righteous outrage among mutually hostile competing groups prevents rational deliberation and civil discourse. This emotionalism eliminates thoughtful deliberation and critical analysis of information. Include ad hominem attacks, question begging, and straw man argumentation and the recipe is complete; factual accuracy is replaced by bullhorn-enhanced chanting, sloganeering, placard brandishing, and rhythmic hand clapping in support of anarchy. Follow the money.
I had never heard of the Cloward-Piven Strategy, so I had to read up about it. It's uniquely applicable to the US I believe, Lin? Where does the money lead to?
In any case, this 'policy' adds to the way that the 1960s social movements have impacted discourse today. I am left pondering to what extent the Internet has played a part specifically in the lack of factual accuracy you write about or was this something that started much earlier in the US (ie as part of the Cloward-Piven Strategy). Of course, it's been instrumental for virtual bull-horn chanting!
Minter, this is not perfectly written as there are many directions in my comment but here is a kind of comment/addition I would make to your note.
Historically, in the Western World, society was driven by religion which created a common good. There could be a lot of discussions around “good” as fighting religions meant war (Crusades …all 10 of them, spanning over almost 200 years), colonialism (educate the savages, etc….). And there were also civil or international wars such as Catholics vs. Protestants.
However, the role of the individual was to fit in a society where he was going to stay for a short while (mortal infancy i.e. giving birth to 10 children and seeing 2 survive; average life span of 30 to 40 years, wars and plague, etc….) this made life a very elusive thing and the collective good was important. Religion made the promise of another life, way more peaceful unless you had seriously misbehaved.
Points 1 and 4 (peace and socio demographics) enabled points 2 and 3 (60’s thinking and deconstructionism, the latter, a French created evil let loose out of its box in the USA -:) )
Peace was the result of the industrialization of war with millions of casualties and enormous destruction. Science enabled a longer life span.
But I would add a point 6 which the loss of religion and upsurge of atheism, a movement with fundaments in the 18th century but has seen a massive acceleration in the 20th century. Plenty of variations from communism to global individualism.
Its expansion was fueled by the longer life spans suddenly available. One can think one’s whole life without the too many dangers that force you to unite with your peers.
Another unexpected aspect (almost a point 7) is the disappearance of death in our societies. In the older times religion and death were intertwined. One would die at home surrounded by family and a priest. This is now subcontracted to hospitals and elderly homes.
An event killing a few individuals becomes a media event. This was not the case before. Donbass was a story of 15,000 casualties since 2014. The figures are just too big, too industrial, i.e., it overwhelms emotion and the media do not like this.
Religion was the common shelter against a dire life on earth.
Democracy is a common shelter to regulate a peaceful society against crisis.
But in eternal peace times, unlimited economic expansion, the absence of real crisis, do I need to unite with anybody? Can I not live the life of my own choosing without the painful limitations imposed by others? Do I even need to care about others?
This sublime moment was fueled by the vain message of the 90s (the end of history, the good of the West spanning across the world, etc…) and by (your point 5) the social networks, where I can find others who think like me. Precisely what you and I are doing on Dialogos -:)
A few local wars were fought. Either too remote, or too complicated …a silly excuse in a case of typical denial. I am truly amazed that with Ukraine “war is back in Europe” since 1945. Do they know where Yugoslavia is located? When it was? That it included a genocide that we let perpetrate, weapons at stand still.
So, to come back to your question, I think democracy and its discussion mechanisms, need a common enemy.
Let me quote our dear Winston again: “No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”
We had been until recently very focused on what was not good in our societies (the worst form) as we had no enemies. If there is no enemy, each one goes to its individual activities and does not care about common good, nor even cares if the other party agrees/disagree. Taken one step further, it invents enemies like the 18th century white slave merchant and all its descendants....forever.
Arrogant China is a bit remote for Europeans to care…this is not for us. We are a bit at a loss on how to fight Islamism, as it is a bit tricky to handle with the Muslim part of our citizens.
Will Mr. Poutin be a wakeup call, a useful idiot (or bastard or devil if you prefer naming him that way), it could well be.
To fight selfishness, you need these kinds of guys.
For us to live in civil peace, we need “good” others with a sufficient common understanding against those “bad” others with opposite views.
Deconstruction is interesting in peace times. It has its merits. Some unfair treatments need to be overcome. But if we are at war with a virus, or with an army, this will be subdued by the emergency.
Religion was a way of bonding together these intricate and complicated elements of life. It is almost gone now in Europe. The US keep this religious aspect, but they are so divided between conservatives and progressists that I wonder if they go to the same churches on Sundays.
We could also look at the impact on short term thinking (what I, consumer, want NOW immediately from Amazon shopping to surrogacy) versus long term thinking (what I will start without ever seeing the end result (war, cathedrals, oak forests, confront oceans on 15th century galleons, etc…)
Some terrific thoughts and insights, Jean-Louis.
One of my key theses (for one of my next posts) will be about the loss of COMMON SENSE (cf the Common Good), where we've lost a sense of what we have in COMMON in both locus and concept (nation, community, religion, entertainment, media, history, facts...) and our SENSE of meaning. We struggle to make sense of our lives, what's going on in it and around it because we have lost touch with some ground rules of life... notably that we die, but also, as Kierkegaard might explain, about the realities (limitations and finitude) of our body. In times of peace, we've gotten caught up in the endless possibilities of the mind, the dream of limitless life...
I certainly believe that, as a society, we need to find a more uniting and meaningful sense. A 'wicked' enemy and war sharpen the mind and remind us that we may have more in common than we thought...
Re your comment about Yugoslavia, it reinforces our need to continue to study History -- the more traditional one of geopolitics, movement of populations, changing borders, cultures and wars...
I thank you for your considerate comments, Jean-Louis.
Give me a few days to write it properly and provide you a few relevant links, but there is one missing element (or rather intertwined with N°2 and 3) which is around, religion, the perception of death and an ability to think of a future that goes beyond me and myself.
With pleasure to read you when you can, Jean Louis.
Whenever “onions” meet initially, in whatever circumstance, it’s helpful when there is a definitely a willingness to listen to each other as many are aware. This world seems to be filled with many professionals who truly want to help those who struggle and experience difficulties.
Sharing kindness, and love would be another great place to start, in my opinion.
So very true about facts!! Having knowledgeable leaders with integrity, sharing the facts, and educating can make for great brainstorming. Without facts, it can lead to chaos.
The past can definitely matter. Facts for sure, matter. Accountability matters. It’s a mutual give and take for relationships to form and work with each other.
Focusing on subjects such as health, schools, income, and listening to each other by discussing what the problems are, especially racial and culture problems, regardless of political affiliation, religions, etc can be a start. You are right how do we get there? A focused non bias and prepared leader I believe is a good place to start. What do we want children to learn? They are the future. Our teachers, our leaders, the media, can have such a positive effect.
“Onions” such a great analysis,:) and with all these different layers and experiences, how powerful it could be to share and focus on ways to find solutions, and work together to solve the most critical issues at hand. Maybe then the goodness will out weigh the bad intent by others in this world. Morals and values, what are your thoughts on how it plays a role in todays society?
That initial intention is so important. Without the intention to listen actively and without judgement, it's unlikely that a conversation becomes anything more than talking at one another. My strong belief is that, in order to solidify that intention, there is yet another layer above which is to have some kind of 'meta' shared belonging, as in: being citizens of the same country. The issue today is that we no longer seem to have a shared vision of our nation (it's a broad statement, but many populations/countries seem to struggle to establish a singular and shared national identity).
Something else that's interesting in the onion analogy is that we humans tend to cry as you take off its layers. It's that listening takes effort. Deeper conversations tap into our emotions. And, as we let go of our layers (aka masks), we get down to what's important and who we truly are... And that vulnerability is awfully powerful... as long as we share the common intention of listening and learning from one another, rather than imposing on -- or wishing to change -- the other.
Beautifully said Minter. I believe many are trying to get us there… but like you state, if these “masks” can be acknowledged and seen, that would be a great start. How awesome it would be to see that in our lifetime, progress of just that, listening and learning from one another. I believe that would result in many happier hearts and help to promote a more peace-filled world.🙏🏻
Today's vexing state of affairs was in no small part intentionally created by those who benefit from it; namely, the architects of the Cloward-Piven Strategy. Causation and continuation are most often directly linked to those who benefit at the expense of others from a given situation.
First, perpetrators anarchy need assign a name and a face to a hated other. Righteous indignation toward this other facilitates Balkanizing society into mutually hostile factions. Righteous outrage among mutually hostile competing groups prevents rational deliberation and civil discourse. This emotionalism eliminates thoughtful deliberation and critical analysis of information. Include ad hominem attacks, question begging, and straw man argumentation and the recipe is complete; factual accuracy is replaced by bullhorn-enhanced chanting, sloganeering, placard brandishing, and rhythmic hand clapping in support of anarchy. Follow the money.
Qui bono; et stipendium?
I had never heard of the Cloward-Piven Strategy, so I had to read up about it. It's uniquely applicable to the US I believe, Lin? Where does the money lead to?
In any case, this 'policy' adds to the way that the 1960s social movements have impacted discourse today. I am left pondering to what extent the Internet has played a part specifically in the lack of factual accuracy you write about or was this something that started much earlier in the US (ie as part of the Cloward-Piven Strategy). Of course, it's been instrumental for virtual bull-horn chanting!