In a recent conversation I had with friends, we talked about how many women have a special relationship with their hairdresser. Their stylist becomes their confidant. And the reason given was the hairdresser isn’t actually part of their social circle, so all the stories and people mentioned are considered ‘safe’.
It got me thinking about how important trust is when you delve into deeper topics. Does the trust necessarily need to be mutual? What about when you engage with a complete stranger? Other times, the nature of the relationship informs the confidentiality. For example, if it’s with your psychologist, then it falls under the deontological code of the profession. If it’s with the attorney, it falls under client privilege.
What about other characteristics? What are the other qualities that come to mind that would complement or compete with trust in leading to deeper, more meaningful and truer conversations?
Absolutely. For me, better worlds. Thank you for your comment on the homecoming… Hadn’t thought that thing all the way through. I’ve put myself into a learning and reflecting -and resting-, hibernating position in order to counter the “void” and adjust a bit.
I’m curious and confident about the outcome of all that.
Next meaningful step ? Who knows.
Less challenging physically than being crew on a regatta sailing boat for a year but meaningful for sure. The need for meaningfulness comes with maturity (age🤔) I guess. And experience.
Yeah, I was wondering if it's a subject that speaks more cogently to me because of my age (57)... Hoping that we can find a good spread of ages in our ongoing conversations!
Just turned 59 in December so I can’t help on the age spread! And would this subject actually appeal to the younger generation? And would they have time in between jobs, kids, house chores, sport and friends… ?🤔
I think that up to a certain age and stage in life you’re more into learning, doing and making. You accumulate experience in all compartments of life that you can draw upon at a later stage when slowing down, reflecting, meaningful conversations and actions come into the foreground…
Age of wisdom 🤗
Not that we didn’t have any meaningful conversations all along but just generally speaking. I personally would never have had time or given priority to Saint Augustine on a Friday morning in my former life 😂
The rest is a matter of personality and taste I suppose.
Chipping in to the current subject on meaningful conversations having in recent years become « substuck »…. stuck below the mainstream superficial predictable surface of human interaction and conversations. It’s a brilliant place though ☺
We seem to have covered the hairdressers, the therapists, the lawyers and doctors…
Here’s another category:
Long haul sailing/traveling and expatriation.
Situations in which you frequently encounter need & want, time, reciprocity and curiosity for meaningful conversations and relations.
I have in recent years completed 2 x 12 months long haul sailing (France, the Atlantic, the Carribean and the US) and prior to that, a 2 year expatriation in Italy.
One of the most striking features of long haul sailing and living aboard,
besides adventure, discovering, learning… along with a fair deal of reflection and introspection,
is the tremendous amount of new people you meet.
New people, new ways, new opportunities every day compared to our more static landlubber lives in which most of us more or less evolve within the same social and professional circles.
Most often you just have the usual sailing small talk, exchanging valuable information and/or great moments of mutual help and carefree happy hours.
With surprisingly many though, you fall tremendously fast and easily into unfiltered conversation on a much deeper level !
So why’s that ?
I believe it’s the sheer NEED for meaningful conversation, need for sharing life experiences and more intimate exchanges.
This need springs from the obvious fact that you live a rather secluded life on a boat, often 2-4 persons together and you become eager for new input and relations.
Like being an expatriate. It’s so easy to make close friends during expatriation because the other expatriates are isolated too. Far away from friends and family.
An important and distinctive feature is that many members of this «select club» of long haul sailors (and to a lesser extent, expatriates) are searching for a more meaningful existence, have fewer social barriers and loads of curiosity toward new situations. Share an openmindedness to the world, other cultures, other human beings their opinions and very often extremely interesting life stories.
With many exceptions of course.
There’s the immediate mutual recognition of belonging to this special «club» and you can tell by manners, vocabulary, pauses, curiosity when somebody has been thoroughly around the block of life and experienced, seen, heard, suffered from, learned from and understood complex stuff.
You can feel this connection that leads to opening the floodgates.
That the other is able to listen fully, understand thoroughly and bring the same amount of true conversation to the table.
Give and take. TRUST without judgement.
And that our conversations shall remain SAFE because we do not have a social circle in common. And probably won’t meet again. But if our paths do cross again, even years later, we’re actually able to pick up exactly at the same level where had we left things.
The gap stays bridged.
And there’s the essential ingredient of TIME. Traveling allows the priviledge of taking time right on the spot to explore the depths. Whether it’s just one long intense moment or a couple of days.
And last but not least, PERSONALITY.
I also find that it often takes an honest and courageous personality, being self confident enough to be able to open up yourself and reach out to the other or act on that tiny clue you were given, with no filter as well as the ability to listen carefully to what’s being said and not said.
And go down the path of giving and taking instead of playing verbal ping-pong, glancing at your watch or move along to the next subject.
To me that’s the absolute beauty to and essence of traveling.
And if you should not have grasped what a privilege it is to connect so deeply and so quickly with so many while you were actually at it……you will when you come “home» to your more comfortable, familiar, predictable and a trifle more tasteless life.
Being “people aware” is a virus. It becomes an addiction.
For better and worse, it’s a blessing and a curse.
A blessed curse though, I must admit.
And I have come to the conclusion that this way of connecting, bridging over usual gaps can not be easily transposed to our daily humdrum.
Now of course we don’t want or need meaningful conversations with everyone or at any time.
That would be exhausting!
That’s why we in some countries invented the brilliant concept of small-talk. If possible a kind of genuine one : words and manners that suggest you’re adapting and addressing a unique person- can be so nice and more appropriate.
As can be humorous verbal ping-pong.
I come from a country where we’re champions of this kind of small talk, recognizing the other.
First off, I love the substuck concept! It's true that it has a large number of great reads... almost overwhelming if you don't curate carefully.
On the two different subsets sailors and expats:
Sailors: I was listening to another podcast about the experience of being in the middle of the ocean... and the dangers and unknowns that lie beneath. The risks are real and, as is documented in other spheres (like war or life-threatening circumstances), there is a very powerful rush (adrenaline) that pushes people together in those shared experiences. People talk about hyper-arousal.
Expats: I was an expat for roughly 11 of my 16 years at L'Oreal. Not only are you a stranger in a foreign land (especially difficult for the accompanying family), you typically also have the stress of performance (first 100 days etc), not to mention other issues like learning the culture (codes) and possibly a new language. I used to think of that shared expat experience akin to the Business Lounge community, where that subset of people TEND to adopt a common behaviour, no matter their origin.
I suppose the same could be said for the uber rich or uber famous. Once you are in that club, there are certain (elite first world) problems and situations that are shared, that others can't fathom.
Another community like that are/were very different were the veterans of WWII (and of course of other wars), where I interviewed over 100 men who were in the war (many who were POWs) and they often were VERY reserved... especially talking to people who'd never been exposed to what they went through. In general, WWII veterans were of the stiff upper lip ilk. I'd say it was a combination of attributes: part humility, part stoicism, part trauma... But I'm no expert or psychologist so I can't say for sure.
In any event, travel is also a great eye opener and conversation starter too! I've made it a habit of learning at least a handful of expressions in a country whose language I don't speak. I think I've managed to deliver a speech (min of several minutes) in eight languages... sometimes only by learning by rote. It's hyper stimulating.
On Sailors or rather long haul sailing which is my experience :
Crossing the Atlantic, watching Casca ïs at the tip of south Portugal disappear slowly, surprisingly triggered a very deep overwhelming feeling of leaving behind well known Europe, (the safety) of a continent, my whole former life not only to experience the Atlantic (and myself) as near to sole companion for three weeks but also as the real beginning of a new, more meaningful and uncertain lifestyle (having sold everything we had on land) as live-aboards.
There was absolute no bonding for those three weeks with other humans and we were a restricted crew of two if you don't count my labrador ;-)
The adrenaline moments were outlived in a group of two ;-)
Then we hooked up with the sailing community on the other side of the Atlantic, and often with those whose path we had crossed on our journey toward the south of Europe. And it's a special community having not just sailing in common but even more so having opted for a different lifestyle where a boat has become the means to the end. We had the excitement (adrenaline) of adventure, uncertainty, of having made bold moves in life, of missing who we had left behind in common.
Which explains the quickly bonding and deep conversations.
On expats :
I was privileged to be the following spouse with 3 kids to a companion who actually ended up living in Italy for only 6 months out of the 24 the rest of the family spent in Milano. We were not really among the highfly expats who formed the elite-club (L'Oreal, Societe Generale, Total, Renault...) so my experience was different.
But the sense of community (amongst the spouses without the pressure and competition perhaps...?) was brilliant and being separated from friends and family at home, having in common the struggles of finding your feet (kids, language, couples, the working spouse's challenges, the purpose of that kind of living, the future...) led to very easy bonding where I experienced quite some immediate, very personal and deep conversations. We were all in the same boat as to speak.
Both experiences allowed for less filtered and less predictive, more meaningful conversations which I have not found in other classical social situations in which you're not living a sort of challenge.
Like your example from the POW's, MIA's and Veteran "community".
You belong to a special community where you're immediately understood and have an identity.
I'm not sure I would fancy delivering any speech in any non-mastered language!
There's something about living a shared and challenging experience that bonds and cuts through the cr*p. In the community where the boat is a means to an end, I can just imagine the difference in conversations. So many terrestrial topics become irrelevant.
They luckily do🙏 The problematic starts when you end the community escapism, come “back” and remain kind of substuck…. Hence hibernating writing and reading perhaps 😄
I have read your comment but will need to find a good TIME to reply with consideration! A fabulous comment... worthy of a post by itself! Thank you Annemarie.
I took the TIME (a priviledge) and I just spent 54 minutes with St Augustine, a podcast from France Culture, in French though, I must confess ☺
Sorry about posting in French ! My mother tongue along with Danish, allowing me to stay in my linguistic comfort zone ;-)
St Augustin, Livres 1-4 « Peut-on tout raconter ? »
D’un côte, j’ai retenu sa brève réflexion sur «l’intériorité de la réflexion » et « je me tais par respect des mœurs »… une voie d’une certaine modestie. Eviter le pêché d’orgueil en se racontant.
Cependant, si le récit/témoignage n’est pas une fin en soi mais un moyen d’éclairer, qui amène à une connaissance de soi et des autres, on peut considérer basculer dans une autre catégorie.
La catégorie de «l’être ascenseur» ou de l’être de relation».
St. Augustine affiche la volonté par ses confessions d’ouvrir une itinéraire aux autres, d’élever le débat -et de s’éclairer à lui-même.
Par sa puissance de persuasion, essayant de retenir l’attention de ses amis et les empêcher d’aller au spectacle païen juste à coté. ☺
Analogie évidente avec notre monde actuel et l’absence de niveau, de contenu, de réflexion…
Tout en essayant aussi par ce biais devenir «quelque chose», par opposition à devenir «quelqu’un »
Alors je pense qu’en « pêchant » en bande -par le biais de Dialogos par exemple -comme Augustin et ses amis volant des poires-, en s’entrainant les uns les autres, on peut mieux comprendre les notions de la « fragilité de l’identité », « l’identité comparative » et « l’identité ouverte » dans le temps. Et de nous enrichir mutuellement.
Merci d’avoir joué l’ascenseur pour moi ce matin, une révélation ce St. Augustin.
Une de plus ! Pour moi chez qui Saint Augustin évoquait jusqu’à aujourd’hui vaguement ma récente visite à Saint Augustine en Floride ;-)) Païenne !!!
Délicieux changement de tempo d’un vendredi ensoleillé.
J'adore. Particulièrement le sens d'ouvrir un itinéraire aux autres. C'est le pouvoir du storytelling par ailleurs. Dans le business (et le marketing) on parle de la personne source, celle qui incarne la marque et inspire -- insuffle et élève -- les troupes... Bonne suite Annemarie.
I ponder how it is we can sometimes feel freer to discuss with a stranger. In a survey I did two years ago, I asked whether employees would have more trust in their manager or a bot. More than two thirds said they'd favour their manager... which means that a third favoured the bot.
Absolutely. For me, better worlds. Thank you for your comment on the homecoming… Hadn’t thought that thing all the way through. I’ve put myself into a learning and reflecting -and resting-, hibernating position in order to counter the “void” and adjust a bit.
I’m curious and confident about the outcome of all that.
Next meaningful step ? Who knows.
Less challenging physically than being crew on a regatta sailing boat for a year but meaningful for sure. The need for meaningfulness comes with maturity (age🤔) I guess. And experience.
Yeah, I was wondering if it's a subject that speaks more cogently to me because of my age (57)... Hoping that we can find a good spread of ages in our ongoing conversations!
Just turned 59 in December so I can’t help on the age spread! And would this subject actually appeal to the younger generation? And would they have time in between jobs, kids, house chores, sport and friends… ?🤔
I think that up to a certain age and stage in life you’re more into learning, doing and making. You accumulate experience in all compartments of life that you can draw upon at a later stage when slowing down, reflecting, meaningful conversations and actions come into the foreground…
Age of wisdom 🤗
Not that we didn’t have any meaningful conversations all along but just generally speaking. I personally would never have had time or given priority to Saint Augustine on a Friday morning in my former life 😂
The rest is a matter of personality and taste I suppose.
I believe it will be important to be able to reach into the younger generations... There, le défi est posé! :)
It is since they are tomorrow’s leaders… and substackers!
Quite a challenge 🤗
Chipping in to the current subject on meaningful conversations having in recent years become « substuck »…. stuck below the mainstream superficial predictable surface of human interaction and conversations. It’s a brilliant place though ☺
We seem to have covered the hairdressers, the therapists, the lawyers and doctors…
Here’s another category:
Long haul sailing/traveling and expatriation.
Situations in which you frequently encounter need & want, time, reciprocity and curiosity for meaningful conversations and relations.
I have in recent years completed 2 x 12 months long haul sailing (France, the Atlantic, the Carribean and the US) and prior to that, a 2 year expatriation in Italy.
One of the most striking features of long haul sailing and living aboard,
besides adventure, discovering, learning… along with a fair deal of reflection and introspection,
is the tremendous amount of new people you meet.
New people, new ways, new opportunities every day compared to our more static landlubber lives in which most of us more or less evolve within the same social and professional circles.
Most often you just have the usual sailing small talk, exchanging valuable information and/or great moments of mutual help and carefree happy hours.
With surprisingly many though, you fall tremendously fast and easily into unfiltered conversation on a much deeper level !
So why’s that ?
I believe it’s the sheer NEED for meaningful conversation, need for sharing life experiences and more intimate exchanges.
This need springs from the obvious fact that you live a rather secluded life on a boat, often 2-4 persons together and you become eager for new input and relations.
Like being an expatriate. It’s so easy to make close friends during expatriation because the other expatriates are isolated too. Far away from friends and family.
An important and distinctive feature is that many members of this «select club» of long haul sailors (and to a lesser extent, expatriates) are searching for a more meaningful existence, have fewer social barriers and loads of curiosity toward new situations. Share an openmindedness to the world, other cultures, other human beings their opinions and very often extremely interesting life stories.
With many exceptions of course.
There’s the immediate mutual recognition of belonging to this special «club» and you can tell by manners, vocabulary, pauses, curiosity when somebody has been thoroughly around the block of life and experienced, seen, heard, suffered from, learned from and understood complex stuff.
You can feel this connection that leads to opening the floodgates.
That the other is able to listen fully, understand thoroughly and bring the same amount of true conversation to the table.
Give and take. TRUST without judgement.
And that our conversations shall remain SAFE because we do not have a social circle in common. And probably won’t meet again. But if our paths do cross again, even years later, we’re actually able to pick up exactly at the same level where had we left things.
The gap stays bridged.
And there’s the essential ingredient of TIME. Traveling allows the priviledge of taking time right on the spot to explore the depths. Whether it’s just one long intense moment or a couple of days.
And last but not least, PERSONALITY.
I also find that it often takes an honest and courageous personality, being self confident enough to be able to open up yourself and reach out to the other or act on that tiny clue you were given, with no filter as well as the ability to listen carefully to what’s being said and not said.
And go down the path of giving and taking instead of playing verbal ping-pong, glancing at your watch or move along to the next subject.
To me that’s the absolute beauty to and essence of traveling.
And if you should not have grasped what a privilege it is to connect so deeply and so quickly with so many while you were actually at it……you will when you come “home» to your more comfortable, familiar, predictable and a trifle more tasteless life.
Being “people aware” is a virus. It becomes an addiction.
For better and worse, it’s a blessing and a curse.
A blessed curse though, I must admit.
And I have come to the conclusion that this way of connecting, bridging over usual gaps can not be easily transposed to our daily humdrum.
Now of course we don’t want or need meaningful conversations with everyone or at any time.
That would be exhausting!
That’s why we in some countries invented the brilliant concept of small-talk. If possible a kind of genuine one : words and manners that suggest you’re adapting and addressing a unique person- can be so nice and more appropriate.
As can be humorous verbal ping-pong.
I come from a country where we’re champions of this kind of small talk, recognizing the other.
I value that even being substuck
Just saying…
First off, I love the substuck concept! It's true that it has a large number of great reads... almost overwhelming if you don't curate carefully.
On the two different subsets sailors and expats:
Sailors: I was listening to another podcast about the experience of being in the middle of the ocean... and the dangers and unknowns that lie beneath. The risks are real and, as is documented in other spheres (like war or life-threatening circumstances), there is a very powerful rush (adrenaline) that pushes people together in those shared experiences. People talk about hyper-arousal.
Expats: I was an expat for roughly 11 of my 16 years at L'Oreal. Not only are you a stranger in a foreign land (especially difficult for the accompanying family), you typically also have the stress of performance (first 100 days etc), not to mention other issues like learning the culture (codes) and possibly a new language. I used to think of that shared expat experience akin to the Business Lounge community, where that subset of people TEND to adopt a common behaviour, no matter their origin.
I suppose the same could be said for the uber rich or uber famous. Once you are in that club, there are certain (elite first world) problems and situations that are shared, that others can't fathom.
Another community like that are/were very different were the veterans of WWII (and of course of other wars), where I interviewed over 100 men who were in the war (many who were POWs) and they often were VERY reserved... especially talking to people who'd never been exposed to what they went through. In general, WWII veterans were of the stiff upper lip ilk. I'd say it was a combination of attributes: part humility, part stoicism, part trauma... But I'm no expert or psychologist so I can't say for sure.
In any event, travel is also a great eye opener and conversation starter too! I've made it a habit of learning at least a handful of expressions in a country whose language I don't speak. I think I've managed to deliver a speech (min of several minutes) in eight languages... sometimes only by learning by rote. It's hyper stimulating.
On Sailors or rather long haul sailing which is my experience :
Crossing the Atlantic, watching Casca ïs at the tip of south Portugal disappear slowly, surprisingly triggered a very deep overwhelming feeling of leaving behind well known Europe, (the safety) of a continent, my whole former life not only to experience the Atlantic (and myself) as near to sole companion for three weeks but also as the real beginning of a new, more meaningful and uncertain lifestyle (having sold everything we had on land) as live-aboards.
There was absolute no bonding for those three weeks with other humans and we were a restricted crew of two if you don't count my labrador ;-)
The adrenaline moments were outlived in a group of two ;-)
Then we hooked up with the sailing community on the other side of the Atlantic, and often with those whose path we had crossed on our journey toward the south of Europe. And it's a special community having not just sailing in common but even more so having opted for a different lifestyle where a boat has become the means to the end. We had the excitement (adrenaline) of adventure, uncertainty, of having made bold moves in life, of missing who we had left behind in common.
Which explains the quickly bonding and deep conversations.
On expats :
I was privileged to be the following spouse with 3 kids to a companion who actually ended up living in Italy for only 6 months out of the 24 the rest of the family spent in Milano. We were not really among the highfly expats who formed the elite-club (L'Oreal, Societe Generale, Total, Renault...) so my experience was different.
But the sense of community (amongst the spouses without the pressure and competition perhaps...?) was brilliant and being separated from friends and family at home, having in common the struggles of finding your feet (kids, language, couples, the working spouse's challenges, the purpose of that kind of living, the future...) led to very easy bonding where I experienced quite some immediate, very personal and deep conversations. We were all in the same boat as to speak.
Both experiences allowed for less filtered and less predictive, more meaningful conversations which I have not found in other classical social situations in which you're not living a sort of challenge.
Like your example from the POW's, MIA's and Veteran "community".
You belong to a special community where you're immediately understood and have an identity.
I'm not sure I would fancy delivering any speech in any non-mastered language!
I'll leave that hyper-stimulation up to you ;-))
There's something about living a shared and challenging experience that bonds and cuts through the cr*p. In the community where the boat is a means to an end, I can just imagine the difference in conversations. So many terrestrial topics become irrelevant.
They luckily do🙏 The problematic starts when you end the community escapism, come “back” and remain kind of substuck…. Hence hibernating writing and reading perhaps 😄
Much like when soldiers come back from the front. The trials and tribulations of ordinary 'peacetime' life seem so trivial.
Connecting dots😄 Good point !
I was just on the harmless front though 🙏
I have read your comment but will need to find a good TIME to reply with consideration! A fabulous comment... worthy of a post by itself! Thank you Annemarie.
Well thank you for such a flattering comment.
Did take some time writing so taking time to respond is most appropriate.
I’ll use it for my book 😃
Had to leave some of the more meaningful personal stuff out since this forum has more than 5 guests😂
This reminds me of St Augustine and the nature of his confessions... :)
I took the TIME (a priviledge) and I just spent 54 minutes with St Augustine, a podcast from France Culture, in French though, I must confess ☺
Sorry about posting in French ! My mother tongue along with Danish, allowing me to stay in my linguistic comfort zone ;-)
St Augustin, Livres 1-4 « Peut-on tout raconter ? »
D’un côte, j’ai retenu sa brève réflexion sur «l’intériorité de la réflexion » et « je me tais par respect des mœurs »… une voie d’une certaine modestie. Eviter le pêché d’orgueil en se racontant.
Cependant, si le récit/témoignage n’est pas une fin en soi mais un moyen d’éclairer, qui amène à une connaissance de soi et des autres, on peut considérer basculer dans une autre catégorie.
La catégorie de «l’être ascenseur» ou de l’être de relation».
St. Augustine affiche la volonté par ses confessions d’ouvrir une itinéraire aux autres, d’élever le débat -et de s’éclairer à lui-même.
Par sa puissance de persuasion, essayant de retenir l’attention de ses amis et les empêcher d’aller au spectacle païen juste à coté. ☺
Analogie évidente avec notre monde actuel et l’absence de niveau, de contenu, de réflexion…
Tout en essayant aussi par ce biais devenir «quelque chose», par opposition à devenir «quelqu’un »
Alors je pense qu’en « pêchant » en bande -par le biais de Dialogos par exemple -comme Augustin et ses amis volant des poires-, en s’entrainant les uns les autres, on peut mieux comprendre les notions de la « fragilité de l’identité », « l’identité comparative » et « l’identité ouverte » dans le temps. Et de nous enrichir mutuellement.
Merci d’avoir joué l’ascenseur pour moi ce matin, une révélation ce St. Augustin.
Une de plus ! Pour moi chez qui Saint Augustin évoquait jusqu’à aujourd’hui vaguement ma récente visite à Saint Augustine en Floride ;-)) Païenne !!!
Délicieux changement de tempo d’un vendredi ensoleillé.
A la prochaine !
J'adore. Particulièrement le sens d'ouvrir un itinéraire aux autres. C'est le pouvoir du storytelling par ailleurs. Dans le business (et le marketing) on parle de la personne source, celle qui incarne la marque et inspire -- insuffle et élève -- les troupes... Bonne suite Annemarie.
a stranger like in Almodovar's films
I ponder how it is we can sometimes feel freer to discuss with a stranger. In a survey I did two years ago, I asked whether employees would have more trust in their manager or a bot. More than two thirds said they'd favour their manager... which means that a third favoured the bot.